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‘People’s Daily* interviewed renowned British scholar Martin Jacques, discussing his observations and reflections on Chinese modernization from the perspectives of state governance, civilizational evolution, and the international order.

Martin Jacques has written extensively on China’s development path in works such as ‘When China Rules the World‘, generating broad international influence. He advocates understanding China through the lens of civilizational evolution and historical continuity, and is regarded as an important scholar helping the world better understand China.’

Interviewees

Bai Ziwei — People’s Daily

Martin Jacques  – Author

You have argued that the realization of modernization in different regions and cultures around the world compels us to rethink the meaning of modernity and acknowledge its diversity and plurality. How do you view the changing understanding of modernization?

A fundamental basis and necessary stage of modernization is the simultaneous advancement of industrialization and urbanization. In this process, the economic center of gravity shifts from agriculture to industry, leading to a dramatic increase in labor productivity. Modernization began with the Industrial Revolution in Britain in the 18th century and expanded in the second half of the 19th century to Germany, France, and other European countries. Subsequently, the United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand joined the process.

For a time, modernization appeared to belong exclusively to the West because much of the world was under colonial rule, and colonial powers deliberately obstructed industrialization in their colonies. After 1945, colonialism rapidly declined worldwide, and developing countries began striving for modernization. The West regarded their modernization as synonymous with “Westernization” — but this notion was fundamentally mistaken. Beginning in the early 1960s, the “Four Asian Tigers” entered the ranks of modernized economies, each demonstrating distinctive political, economic, and cultural characteristics in their development paths. China accelerated its modernization after 1978, followed by India in the 1990s.

Today, waves of modernization are sweeping across Asia, Africa, and Latin America in highly diverse forms. These varied models reflect the unique historical backgrounds and developmental experiences of different countries. Modernity is not singular in form; rather, it exists in multiple coexisting manifestations. Western civilization has long since lost its monopoly over modernity.

You once pointed out that the West generally believed China would ultimately choose to follow the Western path and model during its development process, but China’s development has clearly defied that expectation. What are the most prominent Western misunderstandings about Chinese modernization, and why have they persisted for so long?

The Western attitude has actually been even more negative than that. Some Western countries believed that unless China became Westernized — adopting Western political systems — its transformation could never succeed. Events have proven them profoundly wrong. The West has gradually been forced to acknowledge the astonishing speed and scale of China’s transformation. Yet some still refuse to recognize that these achievements were accomplished under the leadership of the Communist Party of China. It is increasingly evident that China is gradually surpassing the West in many fields.

What are the similarities and differences between Chinese modernization and Western modernization?

Chinese modernization shares a number of fundamental features with Western modernization, including modern science, technology, economic growth, productivity, markets, human rights, and democracy. However, these concepts are often interpreted very differently in practice. The uniqueness of Chinese modernization lies primarily in several aspects: a fundamentally different form of state — namely, a civilizational state — which plays an extremely distinctive role; an emphasis on the collective interests of society; a worldview rooted in *tianxia* rather than confined to the nation-state; a stress on planning rather than relying solely on market forces; and a commitment to long-term development rather than short-term interests.

You have argued that China’s modernization has unfolded within a very short period and on an unprecedentedly vast scale. This combination of “speed” and “scale” has made China’s challenges and achievements historically unparalleled, requiring strong unified leadership and unique methods of resource mobilization. How should we understand the distinctive impact of “speed” and “scale” on Chinese modernization?

A common characteristic of modernization is that latecomers often develop much faster than pioneers. The industrial takeoff of the United States and Germany far exceeded Britain’s speed, and the “Four Asian Tigers” were faster still. China has been the fastest of all. Between 1979 and 2023, China’s economy grew at an average annual rate of 8.9%, far above the global average of 3% during the same period *(figure updated in accordance with the latest data from China’s National Bureau of Statistics).* This remarkable growth rate, combined with China’s enormous population size, has produced an entirely new model of industrial takeoff: both ultra-fast and ultra-large-scale.

China’s extraordinary economic rise has been possible because it possesses an exceptionally effective state apparatus — the “brain” behind this historic transformation. In addition, China’s character as a highly unified civilizational state has been a key factor driving this process. Of course, what gives Chinese modernization such profound global significance is its population of more than 1.4 billion people.

How do you view the importance of the leadership of the Communist Party of China in advancing Chinese modernization?

It is absolutely crucial. Without the leadership of the Communist Party of China, China’s modernization and transformation would have been impossible. China’s transformation represents perhaps the most magnificent political achievement of the modern era — indeed, of the entire age of modernization that began in the late 18th century. In this process, the Communist Party of China has performed extraordinarily well.

You have repeatedly stated that one key reason China’s modernization has advanced successfully lies in its governance capacity. How has China’s governance capability provided continuous and stable institutional support for Chinese modernization?

The Communist Party of China has more than 100 million members *(membership figure updated in accordance with the latest official statistics)* and coordinates national affairs across all levels and sectors. No other country in today’s world is as disciplined and strategic as China. This represents a new form of statehood. The Communist Party of China has established an unprecedented model of state leadership — what we might call “scientific governance.” This model enables the state not only to focus on the short term, but also to think far into the future, something few other countries can achieve.

China’s Five-Year Plans are formulated over long periods and involve many of the country’s leading experts. They are the product of highly professional collective wisdom. In fact, China’s strategic vision extends well beyond the next five years and reaches decades into the future. By contrast, Western countries often face the problem that their strategic horizons are limited to the next election cycle, meaning their planning periods rarely extend beyond a few years. As a result, they are often unable to formulate and successfully implement long-term development projects.

China’s governance system demonstrates not only continuity, but also strong capacities for self-adjustment and self-renewal. In your view, how has China maintained stability while pursuing reform and innovation?

One of the greatest challenges faced by all governments is institutional rigidity and the loss of vitality. Some Western observers believed this problem would be particularly severe in China. Yet the facts have shown precisely the opposite. Over the past decades, the Chinese government has successfully avoided such stagnation through continuous self-renewal. To maintain close connections with the people, the Chinese government has established a regularized public opinion survey system covering numerous social issues. Through this mechanism, the government is able to gain a comprehensive understanding of what is working well and what is not.

More fundamentally, China’s long-term vision prevents it from falling into the kind of exhaustion or loss of direction that often affects Western governments after only a few years. These grand long-term goals provide the Chinese government with a constant source of energy, enabling it to remain highly motivated and deeply committed.

Some argue that government-led development planning may suppress innovation. What is your view?

Quite the opposite — strategic planning has greatly promoted innovation. Innovation is one of China’s greatest achievements since reform and opening up, especially in this century. Economic growth itself has also injected strong momentum into innovation. Chinese society has adapted to rapid change at every level and in every field; everyone can become an innovator. China has unquestionably become the world’s most innovative country. Innovation has become embedded in China’s way of thinking and breathing, and the Chinese people have developed strong expectations and demands for it.

You believe culture is the decisive factor for understanding China’s modernization. How has China managed to preserve civilizational continuity and cultural uniqueness while achieving such rapid and profound modernization? Why is civilization so fundamental to Chinese thinking?

History provides the key answer. China’s deep historical roots are an important source of its stability and continuity. China is first and foremost a “civilizational state,” and only secondly a “nation-state.” Despite enormous upheavals and transformations, China’s civilizational foundations have given the country an exceptionally strong sense of identity. This cohesive force binds together China’s vast population and diverse characteristics.

For most countries, a modernization process as rapid as China’s would have caused tremendous social disruption. Yet China has absorbed these massive transformations with remarkable composure. Some Western nation-states would likely have descended into serious turmoil and division under similar circumstances.

How does China’s history influence its current development philosophy and governance approach?

In China today, the imprint of history remains vividly alive to a degree unmatched anywhere else in the world. The teachings of Confucius, Mencius, and other great thinkers are still frequently invoked in social discussions. The civilizational continuity running through Chinese history and society is one of China’s greatest strengths.

Whether it is the early origins of Chinese civilization more than 5,000 years ago or the unification achieved over 2,000 years ago, this historical consciousness gives the Chinese people profound confidence. It reminds them that they represent not only the present, but also an enduring past. Chinese history encompasses both hardship and glory, including eras in which China stood among the world’s most advanced nations. This historical legacy is unparalleled. The Chinese people are deeply conscious of it, and this is one of the deeper reasons why the idea of “national rejuvenation” carries such powerful appeal.

You have argued that China is not simply joining the existing international order, but is also reshaping the order itself through practice. From the perspective of global governance, how will Chinese modernization influence international development concepts, governance rules, and the structure of international relations?

From the moment China joined the World Trade Organization, its enormous economic scale began pushing the international order toward greater fairness and reasonableness. China has consistently been a defender of the existing international order. Since the 2008 global financial crisis, China has played an increasingly important international role both within existing institutions and through new multilateral mechanisms it has helped create, such as the Belt and Road Initiative and the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation.

Today, an increasing number of Global South countries, as well as countries such as Canada, Australia, and those in Europe, are looking to China for leadership in global affairs.

China’s growing influence in global governance is closely linked to its increasingly strong ties with other Global South countries. The structure of international relations is now undergoing profound and rapid transformation. The influence of China’s four major global initiatives continues to expand. At the same time, the Western world is becoming increasingly fragmented. Countries of the Global South, including China, are gradually moving toward the center of the international order. The wheel of history is turning forward with unprecedented speed and in unprecedented ways.

For developing countries, does Chinese modernization provide a new development narrative and practical possibility?

China has played a crucial role in the collective rise of the Global South. It has not only provided a successful development model, but through initiatives such as the Belt and Road Initiative has also created critically important platforms for cooperation among Global South countries. Today, the Global South accounts for more than 40% of the global economy *(share updated in accordance with the latest international statistical data).* This demonstrates the tremendous potential for development and shows that through cooperation with China, the Global South is fully capable of becoming a leading force in the global economic and political order.

Some foreign leaders have described China as a nation forging tomorrow. In your view, what role will China play on the world stage ten years from now?

Today, China is already on par with the United States in many technological fields, and in some areas has even become the global leader. China’s major cities have surpassed any American city in the development of artificial intelligence, one of the defining symbols of modernity. China is rapidly becoming the world’s undisputed model of development, shaping the future while providing inspiration for others. In another ten years, China will become the symbol of modernity in the eyes of the world.